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[Hustle Pro] List subscribe and unsubscribe

I have a few questions about how Hustle handles email subscriptions / conversions.

Subscription

When a visitor provides their mail, is there a feature to verify the address and request? I can’t find a “send confirmation email” setting.

Cancellation

We can provide the user with a link to an Unsubscribe page which contains a shortcut to do the deed. When they click the Unsubscribe button, and we have the setting enabled, they get an email to confirm their intent. (Yay, it’s implemented here.)
But the URL provided to them takes them back to the same Unsubscribe page. That page has information about how to unsubscribe, which is now redundant since they’ve already been here. Yes, the shortcut now displays a “You are unsubscribed” confirmation … after other text that I’ve added that tells them how it works.

What is the expectation of the flow for an unsubscribe operation?
Can we send the user to a confirmation page other than the one where they clicked the unsubscribe button?
Should I make my HowTo text conditional so that it does not display when the query string includes the final markers?

Please forgive if I’ve missed something on-screen or in docs.

Tue, 6 Apr 2021 20:51:40
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Hustle Pro
  • Tony G
    • Mr. LetsFixTheWorld

    EDIT: On Subscription, there is a “confirmation” email, in that we send the user an email to thank them for their interest. But that email doesn’t include a “Click to Confirm” option.

    In short this allows anyone to subscribe anyone else to a list, leaving a site easily open to accusations of spam – and some other dire consequences.

    Without a confirmation link in the email, I need to disable the Thank You email … and now that I think about it I might need to stop using Hustle entirely for this one reason. UGH!

  • Tony G
    • Mr. LetsFixTheWorld

    Hmm, on further reading it seems the e-Newsletter plugin (per Hustle Docs) and possibly others provide the opt-in confirmation that I’ve noted here. That’s not too bad but it seems weird that there is an end-to-end opt-out which is built-in but there doesn’t seem to be an end-to-end opt-in built-in.

    Thanks for ongoing patience – I haven’t explored Hustle in a while. :blush:

  • Nithin Ramdas
    • Support Wizard

    Hi Tony G ,

    What is the expectation of the flow for an unsubscribe operation?

    What you see is the expected workflow, ie users can choose multiple email lists from which they can unsubscribe. Once the Email list is selected, Hustle will send a confirmation email with the link to confirm unsubscribe, which takes them to their custom /unsubscribe page and only shows up “You’ve been successfully unsubscribed. ” text on the /unsubscribe page.

    Since the custom /unsubscribe page created allows to opt-out of multiple email list at once, I don’t see the users will be using the page again, and don’t see creating a confirmation page useful, as the current workflow does cover all the cases.

    Please do let us know on what use cases you think a confirmation page is useful so that I could have a better idea and share that with our team’s attention for any improvements needed.

    Hmm, on further reading it seems the e-Newsletter plugin (per Hustle Docs) and possibly others provide the opt-in confirmation that I’ve noted here. That’s not too bad but it seems weird that there is an end-to-end opt-out which is built-in but there doesn’t seem to be an end-to-end opt-in built-in.

    The default subscription model doesn’t have any verification other than not allowing already subscribed emails which can be configured when you edit the popup under Integrations > Integrations Behavior.

    You could also configure reCaptcha under Hustle Pro > Settings > reCaptcha for spams. Other than that, for advanced email verifications and confirmation, yes, you’ll have to use Email service integrations as you have stated.

    Please advise if I have missed out anything.

    Kind Regards,
    Nithin

  • Tony G
    • Mr. LetsFixTheWorld

    Nithin said: “Please do let us know on what use cases you think a confirmation page is useful so that I could have a better idea and share that with our team’s attention for any improvements needed.”

    Um, look at most other opt-in and opt-out features in any apps on the planet.

    Here is the problem with no confirmation on opt-in, restating what I’ve already said :

    – “I” can subscribe “you” to a list on someone else’s site.
    – You see don’t want to have to go to some site that you didn’t subscribe to, just to unsubscribe. We’ve all been there.
    – You get mail, because you haven’t subscribed, and you get upset with the sender site.
    – Rather than unsubscribing you flag continuing emails as spam.
    – The poor site owner gets their email server flagged as a spam source. Why? Because they’re using tools from WPMU DEV that permit this scenario.
    – The site owner exchanges notes with some angry person on the internet, claiming they never subscribed to a newsletter, and now they hate the spammy site, and they’re going to tell their friends to avoid it. This is now a marketing issue and possibly affects revenue.
    – The site owner traces this back to a subscription model without confirmations, and they decide to stop using this functionality provided by WPMU DEV.
    – People stop using this specific Hustle functionality, so you guys don’t get any new questions or reports on it. You think it’s all fine and dandy because no one is asking about it, so it never gets improved. Let the cycle begin again with some other feature. (I’ve seen this movie many times, get out the popcorn.)

    Nithin wrote:

    Since the custom /unsubscribe page created allows to opt-out of multiple email list at once, I don’t see the users will be using the page again, …

    I’m sorry my friend but when a site provides multiple publications it’s ever more likely that one person will visit the unsubscribe page multiple times over a period of time. From WPMU DEV we get The WhiP, blog announcements, Like notifications, forum discussion notifications, and others. While WPMU DEV has implemented all of these separately, and we need to maintain our subscriptions for each in different places, the average net surfer would call these all “list subscriptions”. And anyone here might decide to unsubscribe or resubscribe to any of these notifications or publications at different times.

    Have you ever clicked the Manage Subscriptions link at the bottom of a WPMU DEV blog email? The process is so rigorous that Incsub has a different company manage it : list-manage.com = Mailchimp. Unfortunately a request to Manage Subscriptions never returns an email for confirmations … but at least they implement it. (Note to DEV person responsible for such things…it’s broke.) Anyway, perhaps you don’t see creating a confirmation page as being useful, but it’s a normal internet thing, has been for a generation for the scenario described. So perhaps another look at this from management/development is in order.

    … and don’t see creating a confirmation page useful, as the current workflow does cover all the cases.

    Agreed, not entirely required. To be clear, it’s OK if there is one page to both unsubscribe and also to land on after clicking an email confirmation request. But it’s not elegant, and changing that isn’t a big deal. Just put a prompt in the settings for a page slug. When the user confirms and comes back to the site, just redirect to that page (default to the current page which seems to be the page that contains the Get List / Unsubscribe shortcode).

    Suggestion: Or add an action hook at the end of the confirmation PHP, before it displays the confirmation page itself, and we can decide what to do ourselves. I’d prefer this because it provides a mechanism for the administrator to take other action when they lose subscriptions … an important event as any Marketing person will confirm.

    Thanks as always for your time and patience.

  • Nithin Ramdas
    • Support Wizard

    Hi Tony G ,

    Nithin said: “Please do let us know on what use cases you think a confirmation page is useful so that I could have a better idea and share that with our team’s attention for any improvements needed.”

    Um, look at most other opt-in and opt-out features in any apps on the planet.

    Here is the problem with no confirmation on opt-in, restating what I’ve already said :

    The above what I asked, was specifically regarding the confirmation page when it comes to the unsubscription when compared to the existing workflow, and not about the opt-in.

    I do agree, having a confirmation during subscription is a better workflow, however, the initial workflow for confirmation was primarily focused to be implemented using Email services via existing integration and hence the native Email list is more of a one-step subscription.

    I have already raised this to the Hustle team to consider and to check further about improving this.

    But it’s not elegant, and changing that isn’t a big deal. Just put a prompt in the settings for a page slug. When the user confirms and comes back to the site, just redirect to that page (default to the current page which seems to be the page that contains the Get List / Unsubscribe shortcode).

    Suggestion: Or add an action hook at the end of the confirmation PHP, before it displays the confirmation page itself, and we can decide what to do ourselves. I’d prefer this because it provides a mechanism for the administrator to take other action when they lose subscriptions … an important event as any Marketing person will confirm.

    I do get you, the default workflow meant was that the admin should be adding the link to “unsubscribe” in their newsletter, and the “unsubscribe” link would be pointing to the custom page where the following shortcode is added:
    [wd_hustle_unsubscribe id="" ]

    Since Hustle has a 2 step process for unsubscription, it would:
    1) Once the users are directed to the custom page, the user will select the email list that needs to unsubscribed

    2) Hustle will send an email to verify the unsubscription by sending the unsubscription URL to the email ID.

    The custom page will be displaying the message to confirm or subscribe according to the actions.

    I’ll make sure to create a feature task regarding this and bring it to our Hustle teams attention and discuss further the workflows you have pointed.

    Thanks for your feedback.

    Kind Regards,
    Nithin

  • Tony G
    • Mr. LetsFixTheWorld

    This really sucks. Hustle still doesn’t have a subscription confirmation workflow, so anyone can subscribe anyone else to a mailing list, and site owners can get flagged for spam. A (long-time?) bug still exists in the unsubscribe page: Get Lists doesn’t show list names, it shows numeric IDs. Wow, that’s helpful. Thank you QA!

    How can anyone use this?
    That’s one more WPMU DEV product that I won’t use.
    Extremely frustrated.

  • Nebu John
    • FLS

    Hi Tony G ,

    I understand your frustration about this. As we have mentioned, a feature task regarding this has been created and brought to the notice of the Hustle team. However, at the moment, there’s no ETA for this one that I could share. I have pinged the Hustle team for feedback on this and will update you here once we hear back from them.

    Kind Regards,
    Nebu John

  • André
    • André Bothma

    I’ve had a very quick read through this all, and would like to know if almost a year since the last reply by Nithin (Dec 18, 2023 at 10:02 AM), there has been any movement in incorporating a confirmation email step in the subscription process flow, like with the unsubscribe process, by team Hustle? :thinking:

    I.E. A confirmation email that can be sent in aid to confirm an intended subscription which would prevent mailing list type emails we would be sending to non-interested parties and possibly being marked as SPAM/JUNK in their email clients, rather than possibly going through the unsubscribe process, as it’s much quicker/easier/shorter. Just two mouse clicks in my case.

    • Jasper Alamares
      • Staff

      Hi André ,

      Checked regarding this and I am afraid there isn’t any information available like ETA as of the moment. Currently, our Hustle team is entirely engaged in enhancing other priority features but rest assured this is still in the team’s list for consideration depending on feedback from members. I will make sure to add this as another request to let the team know and possibly help further with its priority.

      In the meantime, you can stay updated on the latest developments and upcoming features by subscribing to our Roadmaps page here: https://wpmudev.com/roadmap/

      Appreciate your feedback.

      Best Regards,
      Jasper

  • Amin Nazemi
    • Staff

    Hi Julian

    We understand your concerns. The plugin is currently stable, and our focus is primarily on fixing bugs and resolving conflicts with Hustle. We are also developing new features, but we cannot provide an estimated time of arrival (ETA) for their release.

    I will ensure that your request is brought to the attention of our Hustle team for further review and priority consideration, if possible.

    Thank you for your patience and understanding.

    Best Regards,
    Amin